@ Hester: Not in the sense that Calvinists view PSA, I think. So in other contexts your Calvinism/steak analogy is right as far as I know. A group, rightly or wrongly, is defined by the fruit that we see (often the problem with Christianity in general, right?). In any case, though, youre right. If, however, a viewpoint *in itself*, genuinely hurts someone, it is wrong. Dee, thank you so much for asking for prayers for my son-in-law! A person who has been abused should get A LOT of leeway in airing their feelings, because for a time (maybe a LONG time), the value of their free expression is more important than trying to protect a viewpoint. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. (an extremely brief synopsis:) Open Discussion Page, 1 Corinthians 2:6-3:4Psalm 28:1-9Proverbs 20:24-25. Would you want to answer that one? That they are the sole divine recipients of truth, again. Jeff, above is one of my major objections to Calvinism as presented by adherents is the notion (however sincerely believed) that non Calvinists read the scriptures to suit their own fancy. But whatever I believe about the sovereignty of God, it is MORE important to me to believe that God does not author evil and he does not desire for those he loves to suffer. We wouldnt be having any of these conversations if that doctrine was being labeled as hyper-Calinvism, which is what it has been called in the past. I believe that Calvin and, more importantly, Scripture says that nothing we think, say, or do comes as a surprise to God. I hadnt thought of it that way. At least in Christianity, we have a God who did not allow us to suffer alone, but participated in experiencing the effects of evil. NEVER allow them an unchallenged presumption. I want you to try to make the distinction between disagreeing strongly with what you say and believe, and disagreeing strongly with YOU. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding. Wife (whose abusive first husband was one of the biggest drug dealers in the Midwest before she divorced him) was my Lamaze coach. This is what has been preached to many people over and over. I gotta second numos motion. They MUST insist you agree with themit is implied in the very protest to my assertion: You dont understand me; you cant understand me; thus, your only response is to AGREE that you could be wrong. If its only might that makes right, right can be abused by caprice. Hi guys, great posts, esp (from a personal point of view) from Jeff S, TW, Nick Bulbeck and others its been such a long thread I cant remember them all . This is not the way toward peace. @ Nick Bulbeck: I shall ask our readers to ray for him at the top of the home page. I do believe that He allows these things-for unexplainable reasons- but do I believe that He sits there and plans for a mothers only child to die in a crime? God sends rain on the just and the unjust. When I read the Bible, I find a lot more there about Gods love (and forgiveness a symptom of his love) and our responsibility to share that love (e.g., in the OT prophets writings we have) than I do about his glory or his sovereignty. JeffB Great question and Im glad you asked. When I struggle with this, my answer is always to look at the Cross- it seems all theists must deal with a God who allows evil. Notwithstanding, non-Calvinist Bible commentaries have largely become marginalized in our present day, with large Christian book publishers simply refusing to print them. Though its not nearly as esoteric and egghead as supralapsarianism vs. infralapsarianism. their humanity is often put on a shelf in defense of a system of belief. I would really like to understand this assertion you made. Im not doubting what you say, but PLEASE (and this goes for everyone) try to document this type of thing. A stupendously important point, Jeff. Hes big enough. I think almost all theists answer yes, but its a hard thing to hear for that woman. Thank you, thank you, for getting it right! It doesnt conform to our sense of fairness and love. Cheers you on. Heal their parents broken hearts and lives? Aslan completely domesticated and caged within those 2400 pages of Perfect Doctrine and Parsed Theology? This may sound like its contradictory, but I dont think it is. One reason is because I have gone through periods where I questioned Gods goodness because of certain events in my life and in those of others. If it does, then Im find with that. The Literature of the Old Testament (1913) [Chapter10], Jewish Theology Systematically and Historically Considered (1918) [Chapter7], Norman Geisler[footnote]Geisler refers to himself as a Calvinist but his works reflect a more non-Calvinist view of soteriology[/footnote]. Let me backtrack. Ive not asked anyone to agree with me. My only reason for defending Calvinism here is because I want the focus not to be on Soteriology, but on fighting abuse. This is a big issue for me, because theres a difference in believing in PSA and believing it is central to the Gospel or that believing a different atonement theology is a different Gospel. I dont want to speak out of turn here, but I wonder if the word calvinist should be banned, like the word bitter, due to the frequency with which it is taken out of context and/or the extent to which it means different things to different people. what, exactly, is this thing called glory that we bring to God? TULIP was formed many years after Calvins death to counter five points made by followers of Arminius, though the concepts are in Calvins writings. Addressing what many evangelical Christians are concerned about todayso-called "new Calvinism," a movement embraced by a generation labeled as "young, restless, Reformed" Against Calvinism is the only book of its kind to offer objections from a non-Calvinist perspective to the current wave of Calvinism among Christian youth. Calvinist believe in the total depravity of man while Arminians hold to an idea dubbed "partial depravity." Calvinism: Because of the Fall, man is totally depraved and dead in his sin. And when you [Calvinists whom he is addressing] quote Charles Spurgeons words equating Calvinism and the gospel (a place where I believe the great Spurgeon got it wrong), you are not saying that those of us who do not subscribe to all the points of Calvinism fail to believe the gospel. I follow Christ. If the person makes the comment because he/she believes its important that others should know that there are people who can be hurt by that conversation in real life, how should that affect the online discussion? God doesnt have internal conflicts, though sometimes the Bible portrays it this way to make a point. I will never go back to Calvinism because I cant recall a single moment that I felt any certainty of Gods love for me in that system. Wasnt that we didnt know we had differences but we were Christians who were in it together. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. How do you know that this, in fact, is what the Bible did and is not what God IS like? But those of us who are labeled as misconstrue-ers of Calvinism are simply pointing out the logical flaws in their arguments. That article Early Jesus Freak Movement Hollywood Free Paper country As Sixties(TM) as Rowan & Martins Laugh-In and then some. External Leaders When members begin to question the fidelity of their pastor's teaching, they rarely (regrettably) go to their pastor. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: If you read non-Calvinism is evil youd probably feel a desire to defend your viewpoint too. IMO he has helped destroy the Southern Baptist Convention, but no one dare tell him this. I could not. And yes, theology would say that God permitting evil gives us a chance to to good, but thats a hollow thing to tell a rape victim. We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless! Lydia's Corner:Ezra 3:1-4:231 Corinthians 2:6-3:4Psalm 28:1-9Proverbs 20:24-25, Thank you so much for this posting. I hear the word "gospel" placed in front of all primary and secondary issues. Admittedly, Im not famous enough to have followers trying to define Bulbeckism. Actually, Luther wrote more about election and predestination than did Calvin. Jesus statement that my food is to do the will of him who sent me applies in our context. He is to me, and that in spite of my categorical rejection of most of what he believes. A Adam Clarke Adam Harwood Adrian Rogers A W Tozer B Balthasar Hubmaier Ben Witherington III Brian Abasciano C Charles Finney Charles Swindoll Chuck Smith Clark Pinnock C S Lewis Craig Evans Craig Keener D Daniel Steele Daniel Whedon Daniel Whitby Dave Hunt David Allen David Arthur DeSilva David Bentley Hart David Pawson Dwight L Moody E F Wehad the opportunityto spend the weekend with Wade and his family. (It had seemed strange to pay for a gift. God would never have deliberately planned that my Calvinist pastor-father would sexually abuse me for years and years. And in their zeal, they often miss obvious signs that are bringing the hurt person even deeper into pain. Jeff, whether it was my misperceptions or real perceptions of the doctrine that you hold dear to your heart, someone trying to correct my faulty ideas of Calvinism isnt going to benefit me whatsoever if I am at the emotional/spiritual end of my rope. And honestly, whether they admit it or not, it appears to me most of the good Calvinist I know operate that way anyway. I think I would rather not go the route of trying to figure things out in that way; it leads to some very painful things. People have come up with ideas of primary and secondary sources of action, but really all of that is outside of direct Biblical teaching. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. What I am saying is that there is such a thing as finding joy in salvation, thanking God for His grace, but accepting that there is peace to be found in paradoxes. There is too much work to be done. Some, myself included, who spent years in controlling and abusive churches would say that to be infantilised is the last thing we need. John Calvin, Paul Helm John Calvin W. Robert Godfrey Crossway is a not-for-profit Christian ministry that exists solely for the purpose of proclaiming the gospel through publishing gospel-centered, Bible-centered content. I think that our doctrinal systems are mans attempt to understand based on what God has presented to us. You seem to know the internal workings of God which amazes me. Its sobering that these are the very things that will be withheld from me in many church settings because doing is reflexively conflated with striving and I need to learn to rest in Daddy/Mummy Gods unconditional love. I am not familiar with the guy in the video or the people behind that You Tube channel, nor have I investigated who they are and what they believe, so I may not be in agreement with all their views. He is the primary cause of everything that comes to pass, the power supply for all force; secondary causes are always dependent for their power on the primary source of power.. LOLGod works in mysterious and wonderful ways! I let the philosophers consider those questions. Was your family Christian? Far better, in my opinion, to grieve openly and honestly, and know that the God of all compassion weeps with us. We can also agree that God is the author of evil doctrine is evil. Of course you are. Roger E. Olson (born 1952) is Professor of Theology, George W. Truett Theological Seminary, Baylor University, Waco, Texas, USA. No one likes to see (what they think is) a good doctrine maligned, especially if it leaves the real culprit at large. But you didnt fall for it, elastigirl. I know the WCF does not say it. Much is mystery and humans so want to solve the mystery. I DO think that Calvinism is misconstrued a lot by people in this position, but either way its not a good time or place to try and correct them. I think you will see that there are real differences: http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/, What do you think I see within Calvinism that might make it hard for me to accept that system? I think you may have answered that in your post: I told her that we, as non-Calvinists, have to move beyond what we believe is the logical conclusion of their argument (God orchestrating evil and pain) and try to understand that somehow Calvinists, who suggest a God who allows for abuse, is actually a God of love. However, they are limited, just as we are. Mhler taught at Tbingen and Munich. The purpose of these posts is to build understanding, if thatis at allpossible. If for no other reason than to keep it easier to tell us apart? The word Gospel which meant so much to me as a new Christian, now seems a bit foreign. Old Pollyannasdie hard. One forum in particular, no matter what web site or book title I threw out that pointed out flaws in Calvinism (TULIP/ Reformed same thing to me), the Calvinists would scoff and say each author I brought up could be dismissed because he doesnt understand Calvinism or presents a strawman of Calvinism. even when said authors quoted directly from the books of famous Calvinists. Calvin's Commentaries on the Bible "After the reading of Scripture, which I strenuously inculcate, and more than any other In that case they are probably reading an interpretation of what Calvin actually wrote. They tend to become kings when in power too long. And it wouldnt matter to me if what the person said was true or not. my reformed acquaintances pushing the calvinist pillars. @ Katie: If all that they know are talking points, then it is hard to back them up. Conceding, of course, that this was an English translation, not Latin or French. When people are discussing a theological point over which they have never been hurt, they will present more matter-of-factly. Most churches teach Arminian theology. Although in the ever increasing post-denominational ecumenical trend, a lot of this gets blurred and you'll occasionally see Calvinist doctrines pop up even among the occasional practitioner of any tradition. Michael Brown David Jeremiah Dave Hunt J. W. MacGorman E. Y. Mullins Herschel Hobbs W. T. Conner Frank Stagg Fisher Humphreys Bert Dominy Ken Keathley Norm Geisler Alister McGrath David Bentley Hart Mike Licona It is, imo, impossible to pin any of this down in some sort of neat and easy formula, but the Lord knows, we (humans) keep trying! But what I am hoping is that you, as well as me, can instead understand the objections so well that you can begin to understand why a few quotes from Calvin, along with a few Bible verses, do not answer the deeper questions. That means you should be able to find other believers who view the faith as you do. In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). Is some parts of the word more important than other parts? Glad youre mentioning Roger Olson, Dee. Feels your pain with you. We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. It is very easy to proof text Calvin to prove any point you want to make about what he believed or didnt believe. @ Junkster: I dont know how else God can allow his creation to be truly free, if he steps in each and every time somebody decides to hurt somebody else, or if He removes all evil from society all the time. Good to be reminded we are not at war with fellow believers and its never wrong to be kind. Here is a quick bio on Olson from Wikipedia. Norm Geisler: normangeisler.com William Lane Craig: Reasonable Faith.org J. Warner Wallace: ColdCaseChristianity.com John Lennox: John Lennox.org Greg Koukl: STR.org Paul Copan: PaulCopan.com Ed Feser: http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com / Lee Strobel: Lee Strobel.com Josh McDowell: Josh.org http://www.seattlepi.com/news/us/article/Head-of-Southern-Baptist-school-marks-20-years-4780941.php. Other authors, some who have made extensive contributions in the fields of biblical and theological studies, include Kenneth Mathews, Tremper Longman III, Walt Kaiser, Chuck Quarles, Stan Porter, Malcolm Yarnell III, and David Dockery. Why does a house wife bring more glory to God than a female scientist who wins a Nobel prize for her work? This is a corollary to Julie Anne Smith's story above. All I can say is that I do the best I have with the mind Ive been given. Though I love discussing theology, I am a total lightweight compared to most (or all) of the participants in this conversation.Someday I hope to focus more on the study of how all the different denominations developed their spin.and the various characters who poured their lives into our Christian history. J. Vernon McGee 19. God can do that. I want people to love God and love their neighbors. The assuredness of the approach is arrogant. He/She needs to be able to clearly understand why it is damaging and to openly explain how he/she does not hold to those ideas, which have been so awful as to cause some among us to become suicidal. It affirms that God is sovereign., Pg 79: In addition to Dees remarks on unity, Id also like to add the following: we all accept the historic Christian creeds of the early church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian) and the church councils, which means we all accept the most important teachings on Christs Person, His Deity and resurrection, and the teachings on the Trinity. And speaking for myself, I take that conflict ( as an adult, as a student of scripture, having read many books on Calvinism) very seriously. for what its worth, im the product of many generations of energetic, committed Christian people, several career missionaries to asia, and church since day 1. So if you disagree with me, you must be doomed to hell as a heretic, since you contradict what God has put in my mind to say.. Does that make my stance clearer? These are things that we can work on together, no matter our view on election. I dont want to convince anyone of a certain brand of Christianity. We are glad that you do. The guy in the video I linked to above (or the host of the channel, I forget which after I watched the first video, I watched about five more by the bearded guy who owns the channel) mentioned WCF, too, and pointed out what he considered to be flaws with WCFs statements, which he seemed to think are in agreement with some Calvinistic views about God decreeing stuff/ predestination. He is still in a leadership position within the church. This is why I dont like to appeal to the belief systems of RCC, reformers, or Charlemagne. Yes, God loves you. Yet, somewhere after the third paragraph, this young, rudderless teen stopped reading, glanced over at Star Trek on the television, began to cry, whispered, "I believe" andcrossed that final frontier from unbelief into belief. Arminianism answers some of questions for me, not all of them. Both had a very strong influence on the Nouvelle Thologie of the 20th century. Ultimately, they could be reading an interpretation of an interpretation, adding their own along the way. This one may sound like ad hominem at first blush, but I mean it more as an observation of the . We each probably believe that the venue we hold to is the best and most accurate. I grew out of it, something I hope the YRR does. My hubby got his first spiritual stirrings while watching a live performance of, Jesus Christ Superstar. @JohnPiper: Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head and fell on the ground and worshiped.Job 1:20. LOVE, this comment at a whole, Muff. If Calvinism sounds so much like Arminianism, why is there such a problem? If you continue to use this site we will assume that you are happy with it. They alone have truth in ALL things, by Gods special revelation. There are Christians who remain Christian, who believe in Christ, without seeing Calvinism supported in the Bible. John DeBrine and Youthtime wad usually held at Tremont Temple but occasionally at Park St. Church. That is a love that does not send babies or the mentally unable to hell, nor is it a love that creates people predestined to hell, but rather gives them a choice and only when repeatedly rejected, judges people for their rejection of him. I was the outside force that acted on the chalk by throwing it at you. We bumped into a former leaderfrom Ed's church at Bent Tree. And that I need to keep praying that God will teach me to love them the way he wants me to. Meyer 17. But it doesnt quite fit the way they think and theres cracks that they dont see I will not monopolize the conversation..I apologize for my run on posts. But that doesnt mean I ignore what others have looked at in scripture and believed about it. (Also, it would mean that God forced people to sin, since some of our thoughts, words, and deeds, are sinful. I may be wrong, but I get the feeling that you dont want Calvinists to be completely honest about what they believe in the current discussion, because someone may be hurt. So Sad. He also read the Gospel of John for the first time, (it was given to him), while smoking pot, @ Headless Unicorn Guy:YOu should see my Christmas tree. Ah, elastigirl, I have missed you and your wonderful thoughts. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Lutherans all have doctrines which are neither, and Anglicans typically hold doctrines similar to one of those three, rejecting the reformed framework which is central to both Arminianism and Calvinism. Instead of debating, try to learn from the other person. He started out not sure where he stood. Although occasionally hurt by these accusations of heresy, he responds like a gentleman. Whatever power is exhibited in this world is not due to an independent machine with its own source of power and energy. Even just lurking at blogs or forums and watching people debate the topic, Id see this come up a lot, where most Calvinists would claim that the one criticizing, or questioning, Calvinism doesnt understand Calvinism. I err on the side of allowing too much now, just because the value of finally being able to have a voice is so huge! Deb and are are well aware of the criticism we are receiving from some non-Calvinists because we feature sermons by Wade Burleson. I was allowed to believe in Gods love in terms that made sense to me. I myself am a man, and know all too well, the sins and short-comings of mankind.
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